Systems > Hustle: How an Orthodontist CEO Built a Multi-Location Business
Dr. Courtney Dunn is a force-of-nature orthodontist entrepreneur who scaled Dunn Orthodontics into a multi-location powerhouse through the Great Recession—and now mentors thousands of women as the Founder of Women in Orthodontics®. In this episode of QueenMode, Ana Castilla interviews Courtney on what it really takes to grow a business that runs without the founder holding everything together.
In this conversation, I pull back the curtain on what so many high-achieving women get wrong about scaling: when growth feels chaotic, the answer usually isn’t “work harder.” It’s build systems, tighten standards, and stop being the default solution for everything. Courtney shares how she created consistency across locations, how she led through the Great Recession, and why women-only rooms can be a powerful catalyst for leadership.
What we talk about
Even if you’re not in healthcare, this episode is packed with lessons that apply to any woman running a service business:
- How to scale without the business becoming more dependent on you
- Why standardization is what makes growth stable (not fragile)
- How to lead through uncertainty with calm CEO energy (and real numbers)
- The support and delegation conversation most women avoid until they’re exhausted
- What women-only spaces can unlock for leadership, confidence, and community
Key Moments
- Courtney’s “systems-first” approach to building a multi-location business that stays consistent
- The hard truths about overhead, payroll, and making decisions during tough economic seasons
- The mindset shift from “I can handle it” to “I’m not available for everything”
- Crystal Balls vs Rubber Balls: the framework for protecting what matters most
- Why women-only rooms trigger people — and why Courtney built them anyway
- The leadership identity shift that makes scaling feel clean, not chaotic
👑 Work with Ana: 1:1 Coaching
Ana Castilla Media offers 1:1 coaching for high-performing women entrepreneurs who want to clarify their Customer Value Proposition (CVP), tighten their messaging, and build a business that grows without chaos — while protecting the crown (your time, energy, and standards).
Apply / learn more: dranacastilla.com
Instagram: @dranacastilla
You can also DM me the word “DIAGNOSE” to start the conversation.
Support the show (and share with other Queens)
If this episode hit home, here’s how you can help more women find QueenMode:
- Follow / Subscribe on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, or YouTube Music
- Leave a review (especially on Apple Podcasts)
- Share this episode with another Queen who needs systems > hustle right now 👑
Transcript
once people started like, started hearing about it, they were like, that's interesting,
but like,
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:I don't want to sponsor anything that's just women's because once again, women's meetings
don't work.
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:like, and the craziest thing I got was that women don't buy.
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:Because I'm just like, what?
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:Women don't buy?
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:Have you not seen what we wear?
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:Yeah.
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:I'm like, are you kidding me?
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:Did you not see my bag?
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:Like, come on.
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:Like women don't buy.
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:I find it interesting, you know, that anybody would say, women don't buy and women are
natural shoppers.
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:We're professionals.
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:Like, I think that that's a polite way of saying, we don't think women business owners are
successful.
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:You know, that I
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:what it was.
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:You are, you're a hundred percent there.
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:What's up Queen?
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:I'm Dr.
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:Ana Castilla, orthodontist, entrepreneur, business coach, author, speaker, unapologetic
dream chaser, and yes, I took my business from flatlining to an eight figure exit in just
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:eight years.
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:But spoiler alert, I didn't get there by playing it safe.
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:I broke rules, I made bold moves, and I became the woman my younger self was waiting for.
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:Queen Mode is your weekly dose of fierce strategy, unfiltered truth, and mindset shifts
that will have you leading, growing, and living like the powerhouse you are without
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:burning out or selling out.
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:So if you're done playing small and ready to rise, welcome home.
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:Today we are sitting down with a woman who defines what it means to lead with conviction
and build an empire from the ground up.
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:She has been described as smart, ambitious, opinionated, and a total force of nature.
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:And once you hear her story, you'll understand why.
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:She moved back to her hometown of Phoenix to open a practice in a completely saturated
market, only to be met a year later by the Great Recession.
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:While nearly a hundred other practices were forced to close their doors, our guest didn't
just survive.
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:She scaled.
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:By leaning into innovative strategies and pure grit, she and her husband Matt grew Dunn
erhouse recognized on the Inc:
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:growing companies.
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:She has treated over 10,000 patients from professional athletes to CEOs.
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:But her most impactful work might be the legacy she is building for other women.
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:As founder of Women in Orthodontics, she is a mentor to thousands of doctors globally.
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:She is a wife, a mother of three, a Milo Hellman Award winner, and a University of
Michigan alumna who truly embodies what it means to play at the highest level.
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:Please welcome to the show, the one and only Dr.
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:Courtney Dunn.
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:Okay, Courtney,
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:welcome to Queen Mode.
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:I just want to say for my listeners that how excited I am to have you here.
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:I told my husband, Eddie,
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:I feel like Courtney is the one person that makes me feel like Princess Mode.
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:So I'm so excited to have you here as my first guest ever.
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:in Cui Mo.
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:So thank you so much for coming on.
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:Yeah, it's such an honor.
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:Thank you so much for inviting me.
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:I'm so honored to be your first guest.
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:Thank you, thank you.
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:So you just came back from New York.
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:I saw that.
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:We're friends on Facebook.
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:So you just came back from New York
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:for
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:your daughter Grace's last, looks like her last college swim meet, correct?
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:Yeah, tell me about that.
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:How was that?
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:It was actually great.
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:after being a mom, a swim mom for...
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:ever.
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:I mean, she's been swimming since she was seven years old.
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:She's 22 now.
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:I thought I would be super emotional when I saw her very last swim of her entire career,
but it was just, it was all gratitude.
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:Like it was just gratitude and joy to reflect on all the time that we drove her to the
pool and all the effort that she put together and to just top it off with just four years
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:of college swimming.
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:It was just phenomenal.
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:And she was so happy and it was just a celebration.
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:So totally kind of
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:opposite of what I thought.
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:thought I'd be crying and just really just kind of like grieving the end of this but it
was just a complete celebration and excitement for what's to come for her.
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:So I'm so proud of her for all the effort that she put into, you know, going to an Ivy
League school and being a college athlete at the same time.
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:now she's starting her own business.
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:So I'm so super excited for her.
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:so it was, was awesome.
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:It was awesome.
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:And I always love going to New York.
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:Any excuse to go to New York.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:But yeah, so whenever I see a post about someone go to New York, it always catches my
attention.
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:I loved your post.
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:I loved especially how you put the photos of her when she was little, you know, because I
thought to myself, probably went super quick, right?
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:Like, yeah, everything goes
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:are long and the years are short and that's 100 % what it's like when you're raising kids.
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:Like day to day you're like, oh my gosh, this is so much.
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:And then all of a sudden you look back and you're like, it's over.
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:it's, yeah, yeah.
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:Okay.
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:Well, this is queen mode.
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:So I do want to gears a little bit to talk about kind of like the empire builder mindset
because I do think it is a mindset.
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:So Courtney, you run four locations, a massive conference, a mastermind and a household.
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:Most doctors are drowning with just one location.
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:Ask me how I know.
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:So what?
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:are the systems you installed in your business that allows it to run when you're like at
the Fairmont Hotel preparing for the wheel conference?
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:Like if I walked into your practice, what would I see that screams this business does not
need Courtney's presence to function?
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:think I learned by making huge mistakes.
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:Let's just put that out there.
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:Like at first I was trying to control every little thing.
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:And all of a sudden I'm at a CE course and my phone is blowing up with people asking me
what to do because the printer is broken or what am I supposed to do about this or that?
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:And my husband was like,
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:My husband is my partner too.
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:So it's not just me.
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:we work together and we run the practice together.
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:And we just decided at that minute, we needed to start learning to put really great
systems in place that we needed to learn how to delegate, let go.
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:And at that point we spent the entire CE in the back, not listening to the CE course at
all and restructuring our practice, restructuring the leadership of our practice to be
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:able to delegate tasks that we were doing that we don't need to be doing.
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:And we came back and we were.
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:like, okay, this is going to be the office manager and the office manager is not just
going to be the front desk girl or guy who, who answers the phone and does some
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:financials.
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:Like the office manager is going to do time off requests, is going to deal with
disciplining employees, is going to do all the stuff that we had been doing that we don't
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:want to do anymore.
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:And then we also have a front office lead and a back office lead.
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:And so by delegating those tasks and empowering our employees, we're able to run a
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:very, very efficient practice.
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:kind of say like, we want to be like McDonald's.
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:We want to have the same experience at all of our locations.
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:And so when it comes to the way our clinic is set up, it's set up the exact same way in
all four locations.
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:Like if I look in drawer two of my side cart, it's the exact same in all four locations.
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:The way we schedule people is the exact same in all locations.
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:The way that we do every single procedure, every single time,
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:same.
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:So it can be like that's not really boring but that's the way that you do it.
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:the patient has a great experience in all locations and I'm not sitting there going, well,
I'm in Arcadia today, so we do it this way, or I'm here, so we do it this way.
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:Like, no.
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:And it's just trying to let go.
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:And it's really hard for somebody who is like type A personality to like let go and say,
like, even if I can do this task better than you can, you do it well enough that I need to
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:give this task to you.
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:So I know that you have your office manager workshop um that you teach with Nicole.
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:Like what is Nicole handling that most doctors keep and perhaps shouldn't?
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:lot of the HR stuff I would say is huge when it comes to.
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:Oh, these two people are fighting.
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:a lot of people are still like letting complaints between team members come to the doctor
and it really shouldn't.
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:That should be going to the office manager.
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:She does all of our hiring.
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:She does all of our firing.
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:Like she does all of the disciplinary actions when it comes to if somebody is doing
something incorrectly.
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:She does employee reviews.
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:She doesn't make the final decision if somebody gets a raise, but she lets us know.
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:I think this person deserves a raise.
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:Are you okay with it?
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:And so those are kind of the things that a lot of doctors feel like they need to be in
charge of and you just you just don't.
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:It's actually very freeing not to be a part of that and not to know a lot of the office
drama because then you don't get pulled into a side.
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:I think that, getting yourself involved with that is takes up a lot of mental space that
you really need to have available to run your business.
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:I love how you said that concept about, you know, we try to be like McDonald's ah because
that I think what you described was connecting, it's not just delegating so that you're
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:not.
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:so busy dealing with HR and all those things, it's leveraging your team so that you can
focus on operational consistency, so that you can make sure that your customers, I say
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:customers because I think that as doctors, we forget that they are customers.
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:And I think the patients you'd be surprised to see themselves that way often as well.
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:So I'm going to say customers, so that your customers are getting the same experience at
every single one of the locations.
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:And that operational consistency supports your brand as well.
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:Because you don't want to have someone that goes on one location, has one experience, and
associates your brand with that experience.
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:And then they go to another location experience.
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:you have to really.
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:think about how you create that and you have to be able to manage that.
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:so I think that's great.
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:It's not just like, I'm going to leverage my team so that I don't have to be so busy or so
that I can go do things at home.
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:It's just even for the benefit of the business, have to run your practice.
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:Well, and that's for the benefit of the team as well, because then people feel that they
can grow within your practice.
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:They don't feel like, I'm just an assistant and that's all I'm ever going to be.
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:All of a sudden you are a leader within the practice.
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:know, you, you can grow within the practice.
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:You can rise up in the ranks, so to speak, no matter where you are.
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:And we really instill, I lecture on this a lot, the growth mindset, with our team.
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:There's always something to learn.
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:There's always something you can do better.
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:And.
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:And I think that being able to assign them tasks that normally the doctor feels like they
need to do, they're really growing.
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:so seeing people flourish from, you know, I have an employee that is my lead assistant in
Scottsdale.
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:hired her, she was working at Raising Canes.
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:she just feels like this is gonna, this is my career.
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:Like I love the fact that I knew nothing about dental assisting and now I'm the lead
assistant in Scottsdale and like, this is my career.
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:And I love dentistry and I love orthodontics and I love that I was able to be part of her
journey.
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:That's great.
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:That's so wonderful.
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:that you describe something really good here that when you don't leverage your team and
don't allow them to grow, sometimes I think you lose your best team members that way
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:because they feel like, you know, okay, I'm just here doing this and I don't really have
an opportunity to grow or go somewhere, with my career.
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:So that's wonderful you brought that up.
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:So.
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:I'm switching gears a little bit again.
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:You and I and Matt, of course, have both stared at potential business failure in the face,
right?
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:You were ground zero in Phoenix 2008 when the financial crisis hit.
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:You're watching a hundred practices failing around you and you're only two years in your
venture.
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:Take me to the exact moment in 2008 when you realized this could take me out.
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:And what was the scariest number on paper back then?
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:Like, was it the collections, the new patients, the payroll?
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:I know for me it was the payroll for sure, the overhead.
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:take me there.
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:Yeah, I mean, I think the payroll was huge because at that time we had actually purchased,
just purchased our second practice from a practitioner who had passed away unexpectedly.
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:And so all of a sudden we went from our scratch practice where we only had like a couple
of employees to inheriting an experienced team who was paid quite well.
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:And I think the thing that's scary about the Great Recession in Phoenix, especially was
the moment when you realized nobody has any money.
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:And I had been interviewed before where somebody was like, well, like everybody has those
lean years, those beans and rice years.
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:And I'm like, yeah, like it doesn't have to do with the fact that I was lean.
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:Everybody was lean.
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:and so I would have patients come in with three kids and they would say, I need you to
triage these kids.
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:Like which one is the most severe?
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:And I can't even afford to pay for this kid right now, but I'm going to save up for this
one.
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:So please let me know which one needs it the most and I'll be back eventually.
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:I think the thing that hit me the most wasn't even the numbers as much as I had a
patient's dad who said, well, we're going to have to transfer out because I joined the
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:army.
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:I couldn't find any other job.
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:So I joined the army and we're moving.
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:And it was just like, Oh,
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:And at the time, like I was living in that middle-class neighborhood with everybody else.
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:I didn't have any money.
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:Like I was in debt, like, you know, just trying to build up my business.
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:And I was having neighbors move out in the middle of the night.
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:All of a sudden you just look across the street and you're like, I don't think they live
there anymore.
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:People were walking away from their mortgages.
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:And so, you know, we did have to look at the payroll of that experienced team and kind of
make some decisions.
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:We had to readjust our goals.
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:I think it ended up being like the best business class I've ever taken in my life as
practicing in such lean times because before that.
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:It was sort of the golden age of orthodontics and you would go to the American Association
of Orthodontists annual session and you would see mostly male practitioners walking around
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:with like 25 women behind them all in matching t-shirts and like they were their entire
team and they would be talking about how they have 20 locations and 60 team members and
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:all this stuff.
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:And you know, you get really intimidated by that, but then you also think, okay, well
that's the goal.
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:Like my goal is to have like all of these like women behind me and matching t-shirts and
everything.
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:And I started realizing during the great recession,
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:Like, no, that's a lot of expense.
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:Like, I want to learn how to be really efficient in my practice so I don't have a team of
60.
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:And so even to this day, when we do our office manager workshop, I say, you know what, I
four locations.
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:I only have 22 employees.
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:And I am proud of that because that means I am running with great margins.
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:And I am running a very efficient practice.
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:So I don't think bragging about number of employees is actually a good thing.
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:It could be a symptom of a very inefficient practice, but I learned that during the Great
Recession when I learned how to do more with less.
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:I also learned how to take some risks at the time.
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:Traditional orthodontic financing was put 20 % down and then go ahead and just finance
over the length of treatment time.
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:And we, we decided to take a risk.
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:were like, you know what, we're going to lower our down payments a ton.
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:because I don't want a dad to come in with three kids and say, I can't afford any of them,
but I'm going to save for the one.
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:I'm to be like, well, can you put 300 down or 200 down?
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:Like we were willing to do that.
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:We were willing to extend financing.
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:And all of a sudden we were growing during the Great Recession because we were able to be
flexible with people.
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:We were able to be understanding with people.
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:Yeah, it was a risk and it was a cash crunch, but all of a sudden people were coming to
us.
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:And so...
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:I learned a lot of great lessons, it was, was horrifyingly scary.
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:We had our kids in private school at the time and I would drive by a plasma donation
center and I was like, I wonder how much they would actually give.
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:cause I wanted my kids to stay in good school.
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:And we had to go on financial aid at the school, which was so embarrassing because they
were like, what are your orthodontists or whatever.
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:And we were like, here's our finances.
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:And we were like, we can't afford to pay this tuition.
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:And so the school was generous enough to put us on financial aid, kind of basically saying
like, we hope you get out of this and eventually you can pay full tuition, which we did.
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:But um yeah, I mean, it was quite the experience.
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:I was telling my daughter's boyfriend, who's an investment banker, that
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:I'm still traumatized by the Great Recession, like that my grandparents and great
grandparents were like traumatized by the Great Depression.
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:I said, I always feel like it's gonna happen again.
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:And so whenever I make decisions for my practice, I still think about like, well, what
happens with the next economic downturn?
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:Because like I'd never wanna be in that position again.
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:And so I'm much, much more conservative about.
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:really expensive technology and those types of things for the practice.
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:Like I'm like, I don't really need this ah because I'm nervous that somehow the floor is
going to drop from underneath me again.
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:Yeah, crazy.
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:Everything you just described and were living it with your patients.
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:You guys were in basically the same situation.
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:So it's interesting you said you feel like in the back of your head operate as if it could
happen again.
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:Like how would I handle it?
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:You're thinking about that in the back of your head.
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:So do you have permanent operating principle you learned during that time in Phoenix uh
that became a permanent operating principle for how you run your business today?
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:Yeah, only spend money on things that are gonna make you money.
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:that was our 100%, that was our motto.
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:Like if this isn't gonna make me money, I don't need it.
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:because you have like dental reps trying to say like, oh, get this and get this and it's
gonna do this and it's gonna do this.
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:And I'm like, gotta put it through the filter.
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:Like, is this gonna make me money?
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:Not like some magic math that somehow, like if you think about chair time and whatever,
no, no.
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:So that stuck with me the entire time.
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:Yeah, so only spend on things that are gonna make you money.
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:I love that.
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:uh Because I think that not just in the orthodontics, basically, you brought up about how
you used to see the male orthodontist with older women and the matching t-shirts.
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:And I think this happens in other spaces as well, not just in orthodontics, where
sometimes people, and I did this too, by the way, in my practice, but.
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:There's the optics of what it looks like to have a business and you have a picture in your
mind of this is what I should look like as a business owner and this is how, you know,
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:this is the vibe that I should project as a business owner.
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:But there's that and then there's the reality of actually owning a successful business
maybe it's not as sexy or, you know, as good looking, you know,
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:you shouldn't worry too much about you're looking.
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:So I know for only ever had one location, I just kept finding ways to optimize and add
more patients to my single location.
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:But around me, I would see so many of my colleagues like, I opened another location.
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:And I'm like, but you told me you weren't that busy.
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:Yeah.
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:Yeah.
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:why are you opening another location?
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:I think there's still a lot of bragging about production and number of patients and
locations, but not necessarily, um, real numbers like collections or EBITDA, you know.
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:Yeah.
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:like top line production.
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:Like, I'm an X million dollar practice.
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:And I'm like, yeah, but how much of that are you taking home?
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:Like, you know, they're like, got like 70, 80 % overhead, you know?
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:And I mean, we work really, really hard to keep our overhead low.
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:And I care about profitability, like over everything.
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:I'm not sitting there bragging about my top line number.
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:I don't brag about anything to be honest, but, and I think a single location orthodontist
is the best way to do it, to be honest.
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:Um, in our.
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:area you really just like can't do it that way but if you can find an area where you can
like kick butt in one location I think that that is like ideal on so many levels.
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:So let's turn gears again and let's talk about W.E.O.
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:because you know we have to talk about W.E.O., uh the Women in Orthodontics group.
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:Most people call the women in orthodontics a group or a study club, which always kind of
like bugs me a little bit because I've been in that group for years as a woman
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:orthodontist.
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:And for me, it is a trust engine and a leadership pipeline.
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:you founded WIO in 2016, which is for me is really mind boggling because I was an
engineering student as an undergrad.
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:And one of the first resources that became available to me as a student was to be part of
the Society of Women Engineers.
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:And that society was created in 1950.
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:So here we are with women in orthodontics and we don't have our own group till 2016.
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:Why do you think it took so long to create a space for women in orthodontics?
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:Well, there weren't that many.
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:I remember when I was applying to dental school.
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:Now I'm going to sound like an old woman.
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:When I was applying to dental school, I went to a particular school for an interview and
they were walking me around.
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:And they were like, we are so excited to have you here, first of all.
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:And then we are so excited to let you know that our entering dental class is now 20 %
women.
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:And they were bragging about the fact that it was 20 % women.
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:And I was horrified.
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:I was just like, no way am I going here.
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:Like, it was insane.
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:I ended up going to the University of Michigan.
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:That was 50-50, but it was like the only school that was 50-50 because they really
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:like try to make it I wanted to have girlfriends, like I wanted to have people that
understood sort of the experience that I was having.
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:and when you look at the practicing orthodontist, we are gonna eventually be the majority,
but we're still like 30, 35 % overall of AO members.
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:My daughter did a great study on this, but I don't remember her numbers.
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:But now there are a ton and so it's gonna take a while.
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:So I think like,
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:the trailblazers, those women that were orthodontists, when like they were the only female
in their entire dental class and stuff like that.
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:I have so much respect for them.
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:But I mean, I think that they just you know, went along, led their own way and just kind
of put their head down and did their work.
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:And, it was just a lot of times some people were just trying to kind of like fit in with
the guys and they didn't really want to make noise about being different.
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:than the guys.
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:Because they just, you know, you just don't.
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:It's hard.
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:When I started WeO, I got a lot of backlash, like a lot of backlash.
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:I remember being at the AO annual session and being like at a hotel lobby bar.
335
:And some guys who were very drunk came up to me and they were like, just to let you know,
like, we're all talking crap about you over here.
336
:And they didn't use the word crap.
337
:They were very threatened.
338
:by the Women in Orthodontics group.
339
:didn't like it.
340
:They thought I was like bad or like anti-man or something.
341
:Like I'm not really sure what it was.
342
:And so took a lot of heat for creating the group.
343
:The women on the other hand loved it.
344
:Absolutely loved having you know, this uplifting group that was really helping them.
345
:But I got a lot of backlash from some men, not all men, but from some men.
346
:They were really upset with me that I had it.
347
:this is so interesting.
348
:You took a bold stance by making Rio exclusively female, know, no spouses, no male
partners.
349
:you're talking about backlash right now.
350
:I know this was controversial.
351
:do you think some people misunderstand about women-only spaces?
352
:I mean, I think they think it's like anti-man because they're not allowed to be in there.
353
:I think they don't understand.
354
:There are just certain experiences that we have as female practitioners that we don't feel
comfortable talking about with guys.
355
:I think that there are challenges that we have as women that they don't have.
356
:And I think they have some challenges that we don't have.
357
:But, you know, I don't really want to like...
358
:talk about some of personal stuff, I mean people have very very personal in there and I
think some guys do need to...
359
:take a look in the mirror a little bit, because before I started the WeO group, there were
some co-ed Facebook groups and they were great and they're still around and they're
360
:fantastic.
361
:But you would notice that when women would chime in, like they're, they were not
recognized.
362
:Like people would not respond to them.
363
:People wouldn't say, that's a great point or whatever.
364
:They were just ignored.
365
:And so they just didn't feel comfortable commenting in these groups.
366
:They didn't feel it comfortable posting in these groups.
367
:Sometimes people would be mean or judgmental if they were like, Hey,
368
:really struggling with X or Y and some comments would come back that were not very kind.
369
:But the biggest thing that I would see is just women's comments being completely ignored.
370
:Even if they were intelligent comments like, oh fantastic, sharp point, whatever, they
were just kind of being overlooked.
371
:think when I started my mastermind, like I started to realize like I was helping these
women build their practices and all this stuff but
372
:There are some badass women out there who are growing phenomenal practices that nobody
knows about because they're too busy to sit around and brag about it.
373
:You know, they don't really care about other people knowing that they are like kicking
butt.
374
:And I was just like, are these seriously your numbers?
375
:Like these are phenomenal.
376
:But, you know, they're too busy with everything else to be worried about other people
being impressed by them.
377
:So I'm like, dude, you guys should listen to this.
378
:This woman is really smart.
379
:I the struggle to be heard and to be seen is something that has been going on for women
for a long time.
380
:And I think that it continues even today.
381
:And I think a lot of don't realize it.
382
:I've even had female patients that have transferred out of male orthodontist practice
practice.
383
:And I'm like, okay, well, what's bringing you over here?
384
:And I feel like I'm not.
385
:being heard, I'm talking to my doctor and I'm telling him I'm feeling when I bite down or
whatever the case is.
386
:And I feel like I'm just not being, I'm being talked at uh not being listened.
387
:And I also feel people that are, or the men in particular, they're like, don't understand
why do you have a women only group?
388
:Men have men only spaces and nobody thinks that they are anti-woman just because they have
that.
389
:So it seems to be like a little bit of a double standard.
390
:women have their own group, then it's like, oh, what are you guys talking about in there?
391
:What's going on?
392
:no, exactly.
393
:have their men only spaces, lots of them.
394
:nobody thinks, hey, what are you doing talking about in there?
395
:Are you guys anti-women?
396
:Nobody says that to them.
397
:But it's the other way around, those are the kind of comments that get made.
398
:And I think that also sometimes people because it's a women's only group, we're just in
there talking about.
399
:you know, babies or cooking or whatever.
400
:And it's not like that at all.
401
:I will say actually that seems to having been in the group for years, that seems to be
actually the minority of comments.
402
:When I, log on, it's, you know, cases, difficult cases that are put up there, HR
questions, legal questions, business questions, marketing questions.
403
:There's like real business questions being asked in the group.
404
:So it's not just,
405
:women only issues that are being discussed, you because these are not women issues.
406
:These are business things that business owner will struggle with.
407
:But I think kind of goes back to the, well, I can say here, it has nothing to do with
being a woman.
408
:It's just, you know, me, you know, talking about my business or this difficult case, but
here because here I'm not going to get ignored, you know.
409
:Mm-hmm.
410
:or am I just gonna get scrolled past?
411
:Or judged if it's like not going well.
412
:You know, people, if it's like, hey, I'm struggling with this case.
413
:I don't know what's happening.
414
:You know, this tooth maybe seems ankylosed and now I've got this like open bite or
whatever is going on.
415
:You know, all the comments are helpful.
416
:It's not a, you should have done this or you should have done this or what are you doing
here?
417
:Like it's just, not that the guy groups are like that, but they know that in the women's
group, it's just going to all be support.
418
:They're not going to be judged for whatever they're asking for help on.
419
:So on that note, talk about women and power.
420
:I want to shift gears to that.
421
:One of the mindset shifts that I had to experience, that I had to make for myself to turn
my dying practice around in the early years was that I had a business that happened to be
422
:a practice, not a practice that happened to be a business.
423
:and it's a very important distinction, at least it was for me.
424
:I look at the Dunn Empire and I see four locations, 10,000 plus treated patients, Inc.
425
:5000 list of fastest growing private companies, National Orthodontic Conference, practice
management education.
426
:You're obviously one half of business powerhouse couple.
427
:And yet it seems that when your name comes up,
428
:We mostly hear about wheel or sometimes even only wheel.
429
:Does it feel like the industry wants to put you in a women's advocate box while
overlooking the ortho empire you and Matt have actually engineered?
430
:Yeah, absolutely.
431
:I think because that's what I became known for.
432
:But a lot of people never bothered to kind of...
433
:ask me more.
434
:I love being a women's advocate.
435
:I love being the voice for women in orthodontics when they want me to be the voice.
436
:There are plenty of phenomenal women that can also the voice.
437
:funny that sort of, yeah, I got kind of pinched a hold into this and very, very few people
kind of realized sort of what Matt and I had sort of built on the side.
438
:They just, oh, you're just a female orthodontist, whatever.
439
:And there's kind of this, this view that female orthodontists only work part
440
:time and take care of their kids or whatever and you know it used to irritate me a lot.
441
:I kind of got over it because it's like that's my issue like whatever.
442
:But it was interesting to see that sort of people just felt like, you can be like the
female orthodontist, but you also can't be like a badass business woman at the exact same
443
:time.
444
:and so that's changing.
445
:I think as we had more and more people come to the office manager workshop, and as I was
given opportunities to speak at coed conferences, people were starting to realize like,
446
:she might know what she's doing.
447
:And I'm having more and more men come to the office manager workshop and learn from us.
448
:I think that that's a huge misconception is that, you know, one that I'm anti-man because
I'm not.
449
:I love my husband.
450
:I love men.
451
:I love my son.
452
:Like I want them to be successful.
453
:I want everybody to be successful.
454
:But two that, you know,
455
:I'm just this woman's advocate and I'm not running this incredible practice because we
are.
456
:And I'm super proud of it because it took blood, sweat and tears to get here.
457
:Just like you, it was not handed to me.
458
:It took so long to get here.
459
:And so I'm super proud of what it is today.
460
:And you don't get to those numbers by working part time.
461
:This is super full time situation.
462
:Yeah, I'm working every day.
463
:in your practice with your husband, Matt, you guys both running the practice, as you
mentioned, how do you guys compliment each other?
464
:I know that, you my husband works in my practice and we are so different, even as business
people.
465
:Of course we're different human beings in general, but even in our style of leadership.
466
:what we excel at, you know, we're very different.
467
:And I'm glad because I feel like we complement each other.
468
:Tell me a little bit about that with Matt, like what kind of business brain do you have
versus him and how does that work?
469
:feel like Matt and I are the same way as you and Eddie.
470
:Like we definitely compliment each other and we are completely different from each other.
471
:He is a numbers guy.
472
:He has spreadsheets for everything.
473
:Like he is brilliant.
474
:He is a brilliant, brilliant human being.
475
:He is so good at math and he loves to run the numbers.
476
:I am more like the big idea person, the creative person.
477
:When it came to like one of the things that I lecture about a lot is like how we schedule
our new patient exams.
478
:Like you heard that at the WIO.
479
:I came up with that.
480
:Like I was like, Hey, let's try it like this and let's do this and this.
481
:And he was just like, okay.
482
:which is great.
483
:Cause in our practice, like one of our core values is to embrace and drive change.
484
:So we will try anything.
485
:Like we don't push away from trying different stuff.
486
:So I'm a bigger idea person and he is more the numbers person.
487
:And so like, I'll be like, hey, I feel like this is happening in the practice and he'll go
immediately to the computer and run the numbers and he'll be like, yes, you're a hundred
488
:percent right or no, you are completely wrong.
489
:It's actually the opposite, like whatever.
490
:So I think that that compliments.
491
:each other really well and even when we're dealing with the team, even though our office
manager deals with all the HR stuff, we're still interacting with our team all the time
492
:and I tend to be the more chatty one and talking about all of those kinds of things and he
tends to be the more serious one and so they know like...
493
:sort of how to interact with us differently because he tends to be just more focused on
things and I tend to have the ADHD brain a little bit.
494
:Both my kids have ADHD and like, came from me.
495
:And so I'll be like dealing with like lots of things, like kind of all at the same time
where he does not like that at all.
496
:So I love his focus though, because I can throw at him like all these ideas and he will
like implement the idea like instantly.
497
:He is an implementer.
498
:And I love that discipline that he has because then it really pushes me to kind of really
focus on one thing and implement also.
499
:so yeah, we're a great team.
500
:his role WIO?
501
:he has a huge role in WIO actually.
502
:So once again, the numbers So when it comes to like the actual conference, he...
503
:because he's also a computer genius.
504
:So he does all the digital marketing for it.
505
:He does all of the accounting, the running the numbers.
506
:Like he set up automatic emails to go to all of the attendees, to go to all of the
vendors, kind of all of that kind of stuff.
507
:So all the computer stuff in the background, like is hundred percent him.
508
:He also pushes me to kind of think bigger.
509
:which I is phenomenal when it comes to those things like, like we should do this or do
this.
510
:He and Nicole, like the three of us.
511
:select the speakers together.
512
:So we're a committee because we want to make sure that, you know, we have enough like
clinical talks and business talks and personal talks.
513
:We want to make sure they're all sort of evened out there.
514
:So he always gives his, view sort of on that.
515
:And then the three of us run the office manager workshop together like equally.
516
:So when you come to the office manager workshop, it's
517
:You know, a third of the lectures are me, a third are Matt, a third are Nicole.
518
:So he's completely involved.
519
:But he is such a feminist, like he gets more offended by things than I do, to be honest.
520
:Like he's like, can you believe this person said this?
521
:And I'm like, whatever, you know, and he's just like, no, seriously.
522
:Like, so he does a lot of the background stuff.
523
:Like I could not run WIO without him sure.
524
:That's great.
525
:That's so wonderful.
526
:You shared with me, recently, that when you first started WeO, speaking of WeO, doors were
kind of slammed in your face, you know, with the corporate sponsors.
527
:They didn't think we, as women, were worth the time.
528
:things are different now.
529
:And now they're probably lying to get in.
530
:was the turning point?
531
:You think, was it the numbers or did the industry...
532
:finally wake up and realize that women are the primary decision makers in this profession.
533
:I think it was interesting because when we very first started the WIO group, I wanted to
have a meeting.
534
:I just wanted to have a lunch meeting.
535
:It was the San Diego AEO meeting and I was just like, all these women, we're becoming
great friends online.
536
:We wanna meet in person.
537
:Let's have a lunch meeting.
538
:And so that was the first WIO conference was a lunch meeting in San Diego.
539
:And I contacted the AEO and I was like, hey, can I get a space for this?
540
:And I was told by the AEO,
541
:women's meetings don't work.
542
:We've tried a women's lunch before and we had to sunset it.
543
:Like basically you're crazy if you think that this is going to happen.
544
:And I was just like, but I've created this group and like we have thousands of people in
this group and like it's such a special space.
545
:Like, and I really want it to be part of the AO.
546
:And they were basically like, no.
547
:which was the greatest gift they could have ever given me, honestly, because once again, I
was thinking too small, like where Matt was like, let's think bigger.
548
:So we ended up renting a private room in a restaurant and had like 50 people come and we
had a great luncheon, like sort of outside of the AO and it was great.
549
:And then once people started like, started hearing about it, they were like, that's
interesting, but like,
550
:I don't want to sponsor anything that's just women's because once again, women's meetings
don't work.
551
:like, and the craziest thing I got was that women don't buy.
552
:Because I'm just like, what?
553
:Women don't buy?
554
:Have you not seen what we wear?
555
:Yeah.
556
:I'm like, are you kidding me?
557
:Did you not see my bag?
558
:Like, come on.
559
:Like women don't buy.
560
:um So I was so incredibly grateful for the sponsors that actually did sponsor our very
first actual two day conference.
561
:They were in a tiny little room to the side, but they were stunned at how much great
interaction they got from the attendees.
562
:And sponsors have
563
:almost sponsored every single other year because they're like, I really believe this.
564
:So I really try to like give them all the credit because they took a chance on me when it
came to that meeting.
565
:And then the meeting kind of grew and grew.
566
:And this was the thing we were talking about before was then all of a sudden I had a
company that tried to take it over.
567
:They tried to take it away from me.
568
:And that was what was insane was they were like, kind of like, you're just like this
little thing that like isn't gonna be able to handle this.
569
:And like, we want to be like the big sponsors, but then we want to sort of just like, take
it over.
570
:And I was like, I was so mad.
571
:I remember I was at the pool at my daughter's swim practice.
572
:Like I remember the exact place I was at the exact chair I was in because I was just
stunned.
573
:that they would have the gall to just basically be like, we're going to take this away
from you.
574
:And like, this is now going to be our meeting.
575
:And uh I just was like, okay, let me think about it.
576
:And I just hung up and I told Matt, I'm like, you are not going to believe this.
577
:And I'm like, there's no way like I'm going to let them take this away from me.
578
:Like, this is not going to turn into some like corporate sponsored like meeting.
579
:Like this is this is too special.
580
:to just give it away to another after I built it.
581
:And like we as a community built it, honestly.
582
:Like it was, it was interesting.
583
:like the ultimate compliment, right?
584
:When somebody wants to take something from you, that's your sign that it was successful.
585
:And I think, you know, I find it interesting, you know, that anybody would say, women
don't buy and women are natural shoppers.
586
:We're professionals.
587
:Like, I think that that's a polite way of saying, we don't think women business owners are
successful.
588
:You know, that I
589
:what it was.
590
:You are, you're a hundred percent there.
591
:Yeah, because I think that, back to what you were saying, you know, so many women from the
group and in your mastermind that have these practices that have phenomenal numbers, you
592
:know, because we are not out there bragging about our production on social media or
bragging about, how many locations and how many employees we have and the t-shirts and all
593
:those things.
594
:We're not doing that.
595
:So.
596
:A lot of people don't realize that there are so many really successful women orthodontists
out there doing an insane number of starts, collecting a lot, just having incredible
597
:businesses with low overhead.
598
:so the perception is the women orthodontists are only working part-time, so you're not
really successful, so are you even gonna have money to buy?
599
:Yeah.
600
:And I hope that changes.
601
:Yeah.
602
:I hope that changes.
603
:we had so many wonderful sponsors at the conference this year.
604
:So I hope that things are changing.
605
:got like incredible feedback from all of them saying it was a very successful conference
from that for them.
606
:Cause it's always my goal.
607
:That's it's a successful conference for the vendors as well as the attendees.
608
:And so I think they're starting to realize like, like we hold the purse, like we're
powerful.
609
:yeah, I always joke to everyone that, you know, if you want to a successful business, you
need to cater to women because women are the primary decision makers for health care
610
:purchases, for household purchases, just, you know, really everything.
611
:So to say that women don't buy is a little weird.
612
:But I want to talk to you.
613
:before we wrap it up about the superwoman myth and the idea that we as women can have it
all because sounds sometimes exhausting, you to have that pressure on ourselves to have it
614
:all.
615
:And I know you've mentioned this before about
616
:I can have it all, I just don't have to do it all.
617
:And I think that's a great distinction.
618
:like for you to talk a little bit about that because, you know, it seems that, women, you
know, when it comes to us having it all, it means us doing it all.
619
:But when it comes to men having it all, they're not doing it all.
620
:They have, they have wives, you know, they, you know, they, have huge.
621
:uh
622
:But, you know, so even the men that have it all are not doing it all.
623
:So why do we put that pressure on ourselves as women?
624
:I think, I mean, it's not just us putting it on ourselves.
625
:think, you know, society puts it on us too.
626
:You know, so can you talk a little bit about that?
627
:Yeah, it's interesting that you bring that up because my very first we owe conference
topic was called chasing Wonder Woman.
628
:And I chose Wonder Woman because she was like my idol growing up.
629
:Like I loved her and like Linda Carter, who played the original Wonder Woman is from
Arizona.
630
:So like, you know, props to her.
631
:And I basically talk about, you know, the fact that like,
632
:work-life balance is sort of a myth and basically you have to look at your life as like
you're juggling.
633
:And you've got all of these balls in the air, but you have to recognize which ones of
these balls are rubber and which one of these balls are crystal.
634
:Because if you drop a rubber ball, it'll bounce back up again, and then you can pick it
back up and go, but then those crystal balls are going to shatter.
635
:And so in the end, it's really about priorities.
636
:Like what is the most important thing to you that you absolutely have to be there for?
637
:And so when my kids were all little and they were at home, I felt that pressure.
638
:Like you said,
639
:to like be there for every single event at school, to be the one who was doing their
laundry and cooking and all of those things.
640
:And once again, kind of hitting a breaking point.
641
:And my husband and I sitting down and just saying like, this is outrageous.
642
:Like nobody can run all these businesses.
643
:and try to run this household alone.
644
:Like, why are we trying to do this alone?
645
:Because I had him.
646
:He's a very, very helpful man.
647
:He's a wonderful father and he's an incredible partner in all things.
648
:But even the two of us couldn't do it all.
649
:And so at that point, we recognized what was crystal and what was rubber.
650
:And we hired a full time household manager who basically helped run the kids around, did
all the laundry, did all the shopping, cleaned the house, took my car to get oil change,
651
:like took my dry cleaning, sort of hired a wife basically, because those things were not
important.
652
:The crystal things were, you know, being at my kids swim meet, you know, being there for
the school play.
653
:having time for myself to exercise, to run.
654
:Like I gave up running, which was my like therapy because I was just too busy.
655
:Like having that time for me was also a crystal ball that I was treating like rubber.
656
:And so really kind of just kind of reorganizing my priorities.
657
:So I was able to have all of these things done, to have everybody happy and healthy,
including myself, but just not trying to do it all because we can't be Wonder Woman.
658
:It's okay.
659
:this is really interesting.
660
:You mentioned hired to run your household do all these things for you.
661
:know, sometimes I think, you know, as women, have a business the business, you know, we're
delegating and we're leveraging our team and we're operating efficiently.
662
:But when it comes to being in our home and running our home, we should be running it like
the business too, you know, and also leveraging a team.
663
:and running it efficiently and that seems like at home we're trying to do it all, but at
work we become somebody different, maybe bring some of that business stuff.
664
:yeah, I felt guilty for hiring this person.
665
:Why?
666
:Why did I feel guilty?
667
:Like, because I was a horrible person for like not being able to do it all.
668
:Like I had to let that go.
669
:And like my husband helped me like let that go.
670
:But like, like there was just something there that made me feel like I was somehow
inadequate because I was delegating these tasks at home.
671
:And yet in the business, I was, I was letting them all be delegated.
672
:So yeah, made no sense at all.
673
:Yeah.
674
:So Courtney, at this point in your life, I mean, you're probably too young to be thinking
about legacy, but surely you can see the impact you and your work have had on people's
675
:lives, the women orthodontists.
676
:What legacy are you building that has nothing to do with orthodontics and meaning what's
the deeper impact you care about?
677
:Oh, I mean, I'm to be so cliche, just say like, my legacy is my children.
678
:I mean, the women in orthodontics is going to be my legacy for the profession.
679
:I think like someday I'll pass it on to somebody else and it won't be.
680
:you know, centered around me doing all of these things.
681
:It'll be just empowering all of these wonderful women to kind of take it over and really
take over the profession.
682
:And I'm so excited to see that.
683
:And I, I love like things like what you're doing with the, with the podcast and like other
women who are doing like business consulting and stuff I'm just so excited for them.
684
:And I'm just so excited to see women empowered and like doing great things.
685
:But on the personal level, like it was just my goal to raise human beings that are going
to make the world a better place.
686
:And I feel like I'm doing well with that for a while with my son.
687
:I was a little nervous, but like he's turned the corner.
688
:Like he's really a good empathetic.
689
:They're so different.
690
:Takes a while.
691
:Takes a while, but like he actually, sent him to an all boys school and that was like the
best thing I have ever done, honestly.
692
:They do such a good job of developing men and that's a totally different topic, but.
693
:He's turning into such a good man.
694
:And I told him, said, you it is my job to make you a good man.
695
:And so he is doing that.
696
:And so I want these kids who want to give back to society, who want to create a better
world for others.
697
:And like, I see it happening.
698
:And so I'm really excited about that because I, you know, not going to be here forever.
699
:And I want to make sure that like what I leave behind is going to make the world a better
place.
700
:do you want your kids to learn from watching you lead?
701
:what do want them to learn about ambition, identity, and what a woman is allowed to be?
702
:Yeah, I mean, I'm hoping that they see that a woman can be whatever she wants.
703
:And that could be a great business leader.
704
:ah Like my daughter, like we basically were like, you need to open your own business.
705
:And she's like, I'm just graduating from college.
706
:And I'm like, you can do it.
707
:Like you absolutely have the skills to do this.
708
:Like take it on.
709
:Like there's no reason you can't take it on.
710
:But also like
711
:If you wanted to be a stay at home mom, like that's great too.
712
:Like I have no problem with that.
713
:Like we want you to have options so you are living your life in the best, most authentic
way that you want to live your life.
714
:And so that's why we encouraged her to open this business because it was the life that she
wanted to lead.
715
:My middle is still trying to figure things out and she's actually thinking maybe dental
school.
716
:Like this is new.
717
:Yeah, this is new.
718
:Before she thought she wanted to go to medical school and
719
:And I was like, great, if that's what you want to do, like fantastic.
720
:There's a lot going on with the healthcare system in America right now, but if that's what
you want to do, like she has her own podcast and you know, she's a great kid and in the
721
:end, she's like, I just want.
722
:to do good.
723
:Like I just want to help people in the best way that I can.
724
:And so we're like, then great, you know, do that.
725
:Like you can have your own practice if you want.
726
:You can be a public health dentist if you want, whatever you want to do, like the world
is, is your oyster.
727
:And that's the same for my, my boy thinks he wants to be an engineer.
728
:We keep trying to tell him like dentistry is the way to go.
729
:You should, you should talk to him.
730
:I know this is what I keep telling him.
731
:Right.
732
:But,
733
:Yeah, I just want them to like know that really.
734
:oh
735
:Like they have options, like they can be a phenomenal leader and, and grow an amazing team
and grow an amazing business if they want to, or they can work part-time if they want to.
736
:you know, it's, it's up to them.
737
:And so I hope that they kind of see that because like really like I've had moments in my
life where I've really leaned into the business where I've leaned out of the business when
738
:I needed more time for myself.
739
:And so I think they've seen those transitions in life.
740
:just think the biggest thing.
741
:that I learned probably a little bit late and I'm trying to teach them is that I don't
want your career to be your identity.
742
:I think when I look at my father, like he's worked so hard, he's a phenomenal man.
743
:ended up getting cancer and having to step back from his job.
744
:And it took a lot for him to kind of realize like, well, what am going to do now?
745
:Because he'd always just identified himself through his work and his career and all of
that kind of stuff.
746
:And I'm like, you need to develop yourself outside of your career.
747
:Like you need to have an identity outside of your career because one day it's going to end
and you need to like be happy with the person that you are and you need to have something
748
:else to do when you're done working.
749
:And so
750
:That I think is one of the biggest things that I'm trying to teach them is like, you are
not defined by what you do.
751
:Yeah, and for me, orthodontics is my third career.
752
:I think, yeah, and as business owners too, I think is sometimes the business becomes part
of our identity.
753
:sometimes an unhealthy attachment at times.
754
:I have done it, you know, where you feel like your business is part of identity, but
really, especially in business, you should.
755
:One, always go into a business having an exit strategy in mind, you know, because you're
not going to be in it forever.
756
:And life is not just about going hard on the business forever.
757
:And I love how you said that you had seasons where you were going really hard into the
business and then other seasons where you kind of took a step back.
758
:And that's, what business should be there to, to free you in some ways.
759
:It doesn't feel like that sometimes, I know, but it's
760
:But it should be helps your life.
761
:Your life is not the business.
762
:And you should be able to step away from it if you to be with your family and other things
that matter in your life.
763
:So I love that.
764
:Thank you for sharing that.
765
:So closing out, Courtney, I'm going to ask you my queen mode closing question.
766
:uh Just give me three queen rules that you live by, just short and punchy.
767
:Oh my goodness, three queen rules that I live by.
768
:Well, I'm going to go with only spend money on things that make you money.
769
:Never put yourself second.
770
:And, we'll put the define yourself beyond your career.
771
:I love it.
772
:I love it.
773
:And for the women listening, pick one of these rules and apply it this week.
774
:Don't admire it.
775
:Implement it.
776
:Awesome.
777
:Thank you so much, Courtney.
778
:This was so great.
779
:Thanks for tuning in Queen.
780
:I hope today's episode gave you the clarity, courage, or confidence boost you needed.
781
:Because building a powerful business starts with believing in you.
782
:And before you go, let's lock in what you just heard.
783
:Courtney didn't build four locations, a movement, and a legacy by doing more.
784
:She built it by getting clean.
785
:Clean systems, clean leadership, clean priorities, clean finances, clean boundaries.
786
:And the real power move?
787
:She didn't just survive hard seasons.
788
:She let the hard season upgrade her standards.
789
:So here's your Queen assignment this week.
790
:Pick one of Courtney's queen rules and implement it like a CEO.
791
:if you loved what you heard, don't forget to hit follow so you never miss an episode.
792
:And if this podcast moved you, inspired you, or made you think, share it with another
powerhouse woman who needs to hear it.
793
:Your reviews and shares help more queens rise.
794
:Now, if you're listening to this and you know you need more clarity, if your marketing
feels scattered, your offer feels custom everything, or you're attracting the wrong
795
:clients and it's draining you, I can help.
796
:My one-on-one coaching is for the woman who's done being brilliant and exhausted.
797
:We clarify your CVP, tighten your messaging, clean up your offers, and align your business
so growth feels powerful, not messy.
798
:DM CVP to add Dr.
799
:Ana Castilla for more details.
800
:Keep showing up, keep leading boldly, and remember, you were born to rain.
